Conrad, thank you for taking the time to speak with Occhi. Can you share some of your earliest memories of music—what first drew you to the trombone, and who or what inspired you to pursue jazz as your life’s path?
My earliest memories of music are from church and playing with my grandmother, who was a very fine organist. She always told me when I was nervous, don’t be afraid. Everyone loves you in church. Starting on trombone, I was the only kid in fourth grade who could reach the trombone slide, so it picked me. And then my hero growing up in Hawaii was one of the greatest trombone players who has ever lived. That’s Trummy Young, who everybody remembers from Jimmy Lunceford’s Orchestra, Louis Armstrong’s band, and he had a pretty cool sextet with Bird and Dizzy. He was my hero. And I think an idol to all the young jazz musicians there in Hawall at the time. In the late 1960’s- early ’70’s.
I remember hearing him as a kid for the first time, and it was my birthday. He dedicated a song to me, and I told myself that’s what I want to do. My father asked what I would do for money. I said I would play trombone and people would give me money. Pretty audacious for a teenager.
Who were your most important mentors in your formative years, and how did their guidance shape your approach to both playing and composing?
Obviously, as I said, Trummy Young. There was another amazing musician, Gabe Baltazar, who played Lead Alto with Stan Kenton, and just an amazing role model. He directed the All-State band when I was in high school, but many other great musicians, my teachers on trombone, Les Benedict, and Ira Nepus. Amazing Trumpet players like Jerry Hey, Gary Grant, Johnny Madrid, Ollie Mitchell, the band from Sea Wind in those days, and Kim Hutchcroft on saxophone. Hawaii was a hotbed of jazz in the 70s when I was growing up.
Once I got to New York, my best friend and mentor was the great Richie Beirach, along with Dave Liebman and Randy and Mike Brecker. I was just amazed and wanted to work so hard being around them. I was blessed to be included. They were my role models, and I was trying to duplicate what they were doing language-wise on the trombone. It was definitely amazing to be included.
You’ve worked extensively as both a sideman and a bandleader. How did your early experiences in these different roles influence your musical identity?
As a sideman, I’ve also been blessed with the greatest role models on the planet. My first experience in New York was with the awe-inspiring Clark Terry, who was one of the greatest human beings I’ve ever known, a virtuoso musician, band leader, just an amazing role model, technically, as a brass player, of course, also one of the greatest improvisers ever on the planet. I mean he was the King of Jazz, that’s what they called him. He was my chief. And then, of course, the experience working with other Big bands. I worked with Buddy Rich, who was a role model in a different way, but he was like the drill sergeant in jazz boot camp. Toshiko Akiyoshi and Lew Tabackin, who had faith in me and were fantastic role models and band leaders. And then, of course, in the Afro-Caribbean world, playing with Eddie Palmieri and before that with Mario Bauza. Mario was the King of Afro-Cuban music, and we played with Dizzy, Paquito D’Rivera, and Mario’s Afro-Cuban Orchestra. He was a living legend. Then I had
a chance to perform with Tito Puente and the original Lincoln Center Afro-Cuban Orchestra. These great geniuses were all larger than life. To be allowed to share the stage with them was a sacred privilege. Most people had to pay admission. Being next to them, receiving encouragement, and sometimes tough love meant everything to me.
Touring with legends like Joe Henderson, Horace Silver, and McCoy Tyner must have been transformative. What are some of the most valuable lessons you learned on the road with such iconic artists?
As a trombone player to play with people like Joe-Hen, Horace, McCoy was even more of a dream. I listened to all of them growing up. Cape Verdean Blues, the Real McCoy, when I was a kid. My uncle had given me some jazz records. And the lessons learned… First is the amazing consistency. Mind-blowing creativity night after night after night. Another thing is how brilliant and what brilliant geniuses these folks were outside of music. Just phenomenal, phenomenal intellectual capacity, breadth of knowledge, just of life and everything in between. Beyond that is the humanity. They were true, compassionate, caring individuals who spread the love and mirrored their love of humanity through their music to the audience. Everyone in the audience felt this sense of spiritual resonance. To be next to that night after night was a transcendental experience. For sure.
You’ve been a part of the Mingus Big Band for many years, serving as both musical director and arranger. How did that experience challenge or stretch you creatively?
The Mingus Big Band, Dynasty, and Orchestra are some of the greatest ensembles in jazz. I was too young and came to town after Mingus had passed, but I came to know Sue Mingus really well and have been a member for about 30 years. Mingus’s music will definitely blow your mind, stretch out your chops, and give you a completely transformative perspective on what it is to play jazz and to improvise. Mingus took the music to a deeper level. It’s not about notes. It’s about feelings. It’s about commitment. It’s about a love for the people. It’s about a search for justice. It’s a determination to speak truth to power and to tell things how it is. You do that through your horn, through the blues, through a passion that is way beyond notes on a written page or even notes that are coming out of your horn. Mingus’ music teaches you how to express feeling and that’s a gift to us and pure genius from him.
The “Latin Side of…” series has become a signature part of your discography. What first inspired you to explore classic jazz repertoire through an Afro-Caribbean lens, and how has that vision evolved over the years?
The Latin Side of” series started with Eddie Palmieri. Brian Lynch, Donald Harrison, and I performing night after night. We were playing on Eddie’s compositions, things like Azucar, EP Blues, spontaneously, we would superimpose different things. John Coltrane’s Impressions or Blue Train. A friend, a great friend, Bob Belden, and I were discussing potential projects, and we decided that recording John Coltrane’s music in Clave would be amazing. It worked out that Astor Place Records was willing to record, and I had the greatest musicians on the planet, Eddie Palmieri, Danilo Perez, of course with Brian Lynch, Ronnie Cuber, and an amazing rhythm section, Adam Cruz, Richie Flores, Milton Cardona, Andy Gonzalez, and John Benitez. And so we recorded the Latin Side of Coltrane, One thing led to the other (Grammy nomination), and it just made sense to continue down the line. We started performing at the Blue Note in New York City regularly and recording for Half Note Records and extended of course to the music of Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, and Joe Henderson. Credit goes to Steven Ben-Susan and Jeff Levenson for producing these. Then, with Savant Records, we recorded Latin Sides of Horace, Silver, Charles Mingus, and McCoy Tyner. With Barney Fields. It was a very organic progression and a blessing to perform music of these great geniuses. It means the world to me because I was able to perform with Miles, Joe Hen, Horace, and McCoy. Recording re-imaginations of their music-Dream come true.
Your new album, Reflections – Facing South, is unique for its drummer-less trio format. What inspired this bold choice, and how did it influence the creative process and interplay with Eddie Palmieri and Luques Curtis?
”Reflections Facing South” is unique in a lot of ways to Afro-Caribbean music because there’s no percussion. It was sort of put upon us because we wanted to record during the pandemic, and at first, it was limited to only two musicians in the studio. Then they allowed a third musician. Eddie and I had recorded duo for an NPR broadcast several years ago and wanted to do a full-length recording. Then the idea was to add Lucques Curtis on bass to free up Eddie’s left hand, which worked out perfectly. We were all brothers in arms from hundreds if not thousands of gigs. Eddie said we earned our Salsa badge. So it was thrown on us, but then we tried to make the best of it, obviously. The idea was for Eddie and I to both contribute original compositions, and then we ended up co-writing, as well. I performed and recorded for 40 years with Eddie. He’s my company, my son’s godfather, my blood brother. And we had played duo a bunch of times within different concerts, spontaneously. So once again, we weren’t trying to do anything out of the ordinary. We were just doing what we always have done and of course, as jazz musicians, we improvise.
You and Eddie Palmieri have a long history of collaboration. Can you talk about the musical chemistry you share and what you’ve learned from working alongside him, both in the studio and on stage?
Eddie Palmieri was one of the greatest musicians that ever walked the face of this planet. Obviously, a virtuoso pianist, groundbreaking composer, dynamic and world-famous band leader. Beyond that, he was a warrior. In many ways, he mirrored what I mentioned with Charles Mingus. He always sought justice, reference his album “Justicia”. Once again, a person who spoke truth to power, and as I’ve said before, never once in my life did I ever see or feel a moment of fear while in the presence of Eddie Palmieri. He was afraid of nothing. We took musical chances. Where many band leaders are looking for things that are safe, Eddie was the opposite. He wanted you to walk a tight rope with no safety net. That’s where amazing things happen, and it’s been said many times; he said it himself. He didn’t think he was going to excite you. He knew he was going to excite you. That spirit and that revolutionary quality carried over and permeated everything we did, and it influenced all of us. It influenced me, Brian Lynch, Donald Harrison, and everyone in the band, and everyone for decades. Eddie’s daughter mentioned that over his career, he had 88 different musicians that he recorded with in his orchestras. For me, being one of those 88 keys is the honor of a lifetime.
Looking back on your extensive recording career—200+ albums and counting—are there particular sessions or performances that stand out as turning points or personal highlights for you?
I have been so fortunate to record with my heroes. All the people we’ve mentioned and a few that we haven’t. Things that stand out to me, obviously, recording with Miles Davis and Quincy Jones “Live at Montreux”. Frank Sinatra Duets, and having the good fortune to perform with Frank Sinatra on and off for over a decade. All of the recordings with Joe Henderson, Eddie Palmieri, with Mario Bauza, with Paquito de Rivera, with Michel Camilo. All of these things and these experiences were transformational. I have to say personally, my trio recording “Tip of the Sword” with Richie Beirach and Jack DeJohnette is among my favorites of all time. A lot of people don’t know about that recording, but it was a dream of my lifetime. I’ve been so blessed and so fortunate to record with different folks, with my own groups. People also don’t know that I have about 20 straight ahead records and playing with people like Ron McClure, Dave Liebman, Randy and Michael Brecker, Adam Nussbaum, Jeff “Tane” Watts, James Genus, Dave Kikoski, Seamus Blake, with so many different folks. It’s really quite humbling.
As someone who’s been recognized for your work in both Latin and straight-ahead jazz, what do you see as the connective tissue between these traditions, and how do you navigate those worlds as an artist?
It’s all Africa all the time. This music is a gift from our African, African-American and Afro-Caribbean great grandmothers and grandfathers. It’s a gift to the world. We have been blessed with this gift. It’s our sacred obligation to honor, preserve, and celebrate this music. Eddie Palmieri always said it’s a 40,000 year tradition. It’s challenging to follow in such giant steps. The goal is to honor the legacy and genius of such a groundbreaking art form while simultaneously keeping the tradition of sacred Afro-Caribbean rhythms.
In your role as an educator and Artistic Director at Rutgers, what core values or philosophies do you try to impart to the next generation of jazz musicians?
I feel like music education really revolves around the balance of technical criteria and then the deeper artistic and spiritual criteria that are necessary to achieve your own original voice. From a technical perspective, we’re working on sound. We’re working on technique. We’re working on ideas and improvisational language. From a more transcendental artistic perspective, we’re looking at how to develop our own sound, how to internalize and give a life in sound to our ideas. The concept there is that we’re painters in sound and the audience is the canvas. There’s definitely a process to learning the inner aspects of music for students. There’s also a process in grasping the external, more obvious aspects of scales, patterns, and technique. A lot of dedication, devotion, and discipline. So, to balance that and learn to maximize our time management is the big key to success.
Finally, what do you hope listeners take away from Reflections – Facing South, and how do you see this project fitting into the broader arc of your career and your ongoing exploration of jazz?
”Reflections Facing South” is a very special project. It’s something that Eddie Palmieri and I had wanted to do for quite some time. The Covid-19 pandemic offered us a lot of challenges, but it gave us the opportunity to go into the studio and record original music in a more intimate setting. I think for fans of Eddie, for fans of Afro Caribbean music, for fans of jazz, the intimacy of this project gives a real window into who we are as musicians and composers, and really who we are as people. I think, obviously, Eddie was a transcendental figure in Afro Caribbean, Jazz, and World Music. The great ones offer up a window into their personal living room. It’s what separates the legends from everyone else. Among many, there’s been three legends in particular that I’ve played with in my life who have been able to do that. Along with Miles Davis and Frank Sinatra, Eddie Palmieri was able to project that love and that immediacy to each individual listener, so that when you were listening to them live or even on a record, it was as if they were playing right to you. There was a soul-to-soul transmission, a spiritual resonance and projection. Hopefully, this project allows listeners to feel that soulfulness from Eddie, Luques, and I. All of us being in the presence of one of the greatest who’s ever lived, so that you’ll be able to hear the music mirrored in his great genius.
For further information on Conrad Herwig, please visit his official website
Main image -Conrad Herwig by Atael Weissman / Conrad Herwig Eddie Palmieri – Courtesy Conrad Herwig
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