Singer-songwriter Lou Rhodes, known for her Mercury Music Prize nomination and as the former lead vocalist and co-founder of Lamb, and award-winning songwriter/pianist Rohan Heath have formed the duo Kiiōtō at a time when both had, in different ways, stepped back from making music. However, they found themselves drawn back in by a shared instinct for atmosphere, storytelling, and emotional truth.
Their debut album, *As Dust We Rise*, began during a road trip through Louisiana and was completed in the UK. It was released in 2024 to widespread critical acclaim. Now, they are back with a new album titled *Black Salt*, which was primarily written in their home studio with a remarkable lineup of collaborators, including Hawi Gondwe, Andy Hamill, Mykey Wilson, and even an impromptu guitar contribution from David Arnold.
Occhi sits down with Kiiōtō to discuss their journey so far, the music that has inspired them to return to the studio, and the artistic world they have created with this new recording.
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Thanks for taking the time to speak with Occhi Magazine. Before Kiiōtō existed, can you each take us back to the first moment music felt like more than a hobby—what did it give you both that nothing else could?
Lou: Looking back to the first moment music felt like more than a hobby, I’d have to say that would be in the early days of the band Lamb I co-founded back in 1994. We signed a record deal in 1995 with Fontana Records, a subsidiary of Mercury Records, on the basis of 3 demos on a cassette tape. I guess getting our first advance was the turning point (they also paid for us to set up a studio along with the advance). The idea that we had money to live on while writing and recording an album was a revelation after years of scrabbling to pay the bills, and it gave us the freedom and security to be creative full-time and make music our sole focus, which felt like a dream come true.
Rohan: The realisation that music was no longer a hobby came when I landed at JFK airport in New York in 1990, as keyboard player for the band A Guy Called Gerald. I remember picking up my flight cases from the carousel and it sinking in that I was now a professional musician! It felt almost surreal, as back then it was every musician’s dream to tour the USA.
You formed Kiiōtō after “seemingly stepping away from making music.” What were you walking away from, and what pulled you back in? Was it desire, necessity, or something unresolved?
Lou: I don’t think I was particularly ‘walking away’ from anything. For my part, Lamb had come to a natural end after a particularly challenging tour in which personalities had conflicted irreparably, and there was a sense that we’d come to a point where the creative spark had gone. I’d made 4 solo albums which I’d found rewarding but essentially lonely. Lockdown struck, and I put my energy into poetry (studying for a Masters at Bath Spa University), which felt like a natural sideways step from songwriting and something that fed my natural introversion.
Rohan: I had, for the most part, walked away from music because of the inevitable negative aspects that come from having a big ‘hit’ (that hit was the song ‘The Key, The Secret’, by my band at the time, the Urban Cookie Collective) back in the 1990s. Everyone dreams of having a big hit song. However, with that success came all sorts of problems. But as time passed, and from the perspective of a listener rather than a creator, my love for making music was slowly rekindled. It was at this point that I met Lou, who had a piano in her kitchen. It was on that piano that the first Kiiōtō songs were created.
Was there anything you initially misread about each other creatively—and how did that misunderstanding end up shaping the band’s identity?
Lou: I’d known of Rohan over the years through Manchester’s music scene (we were both based there in the 90s) and, of course, he was most famous for his project, Urban Cookie Collective, who’d had a global hit with their song The Key, The Secret. So, I guess I expected his musical taste to be leaning towards pop and more commercial dance music. As I got to know him, though, initially via email correspondence and then in person, it transpired that his musical taste was much more esoteric, spanning from Neil Young to Stanley Clarke and Funkadelic (to name but a few). These influences showed in the voicings he played on the piano, which fed into a kind of untapped realm I’d always wanted to explore in my sonic palette as a writer.
You’ve referenced influences as diverse as Carole King, Khruangbin, and Alice Coltrane. Rather than “who inspired you,” I’m curious: what did each of those references permit you to do—emotionally or structurally that you weren’t allowing yourselves before?
Lou: Wow, that’s a deep question: the idea of creative ‘permission’. I guess all these references were artists who weren’t/aren’t constrained by definition or category. Carole King was a consummate songwriter who effortlessly straddled the worlds of American progressive folk and soul styles, her songs covered by legends such as Aretha Franklyn. Whilst her lyrics were incredible, it was her chordal voicings that set her apart. Khruangbin too take disparate influences from Thai Pop and 70s Americana to make music that’s undefinable, and Alice Coltrane took spiritual jazz out into the stratosphere. So, I guess, coming back to your question, it’s about allowing oneself to make music without constraint or external expectation. Kiiōtō is, quite simply, the music we love to make, unfettered by any such restriction.
Heath described the making of Black Salt as “two planets colliding.” What was the collision really about—sound, leadership, vulnerability, or control—and what did it cost you personally while it was happening?
Rohan: Ha! The collision was probably about all of the above. We are both extremely strong-willed individuals and used to working in our own ways creatively. At the same time, we are united, both as a couple and in the knowledge that Kiiōtō is the product of our combined forces. Sometimes it’s like a creative wrestling match, but we’ve learnt to trust the process and give each other space within it.
Butterfly is described as a dark critique of a narcissist with a claustrophobic chill. How do you write about a narcissist without accidentally giving them the spotlight they crave—and what line did you refuse to cross in that lyric?
Lou: The lyrics of Butterfly were inspired by a narcissist in the public eye. They wouldn’t know it’s about them and have the world’s spotlight on them constantly. Nevertheless, I guess the line we didn’t cross was in keeping the reference to them ambiguous so as not to identify them directly.
Zero Gravity takes inspiration from Samantha Harvey’s Orbital, zooming out into space. What does distance (space, orbit, perspective) allow you to say about Earth that you can’t say when you’re inside the mess of daily life?
Rohan: There’s something called the Overview Effect, experienced by astronauts when viewing the Earth from the distance of orbit, described as an overwhelming state of awe and a deep, emotional realization of humanity’s shared fragility against the vastness of space. There’s a sense in which zooming out gives a perspective of the planet we inhabit that defies artificial boundaries and transcends human division. It can also bring a huge sense of compassion and concern for the ecological state of the planet. In a way, it’s a more dramatic alternative to the effect of ‘going inwards’ through meditation. Both allow the mind to find new ways of contemplating our existence.
Little Axe tackles raising young men under the threat of urban violence. When you write about danger and survival, how do you avoid turning real lives into an“aesthetic”—and what responsibility do you feel to the people who live that reality?
Lou: Little Axe was very much written from a personal perspective, so there’s no sense of distance from real lives or of othering for aesthetic purposes. Granted, the initial inspiration for the song was the story of the ‘Central Park Five’, but the experience of parenting and raising young men in London, or any large city, is a delicate balance of protection and letting go. The term Little Axe refers to a kind of wisdom or ‘street-smartness’ needed by boys and young men to navigate potential threats and prejudice, without resorting to paranoia or hostility.
White Noise confronts social media’s hold on the modern mind. Do you feel social media has changed your attention as artists—and if so, what practices do you use to protect depth, patience, and craft from the algorithm?
Lou: Social media is, tragically, a necessary evil for most artists as one of the main ways of reaching our audience. It’s something we have a really contradictory relationship with; it takes up far too much of the time and energy we would otherwise be using more creatively and yet it sucks us into the weird dopamine-hit mentality that makes it scarily compulsive. For this reason, we make sure we take plenty of time away from phones etc, unplugging completely when possible and, when interacting with social media, reminding ourselves that it’s a means to an end rather than an all-encompassing reality.
Lost Map reflects on your DNA tests and “disparate heritages.” Did the results give you clarity—or did they complicate the story you tell yourselves about who you are? And did that shift how you hear your own voices in the music?
Lou: Lost Map was quite an adventure for us. Rohan had taken a DNA test some years ago but found that, whilst his European roots were accurately broken down, his African lineage was less so. Revisiting the site more recently, he found that more information had become available about this side of his bloodline, and he was able to trace roots more specifically to Nigeria, Sierra Leone, and Ghana, among others. This was a revelation. His Guyanese father had always spoken of Amerindian roots but knew little else. His mother, from Switzerland, brought mostly Germanic roots, along with hints of Italian.
Inspired by this new information, Rohan bought a test for me, and I excitedly awaited the results. I’d often been told I didn’t look English, and people had asked if I had roots in Scandinavia or even Japan so I was pretty disappointed to find I was over 99% British and that my ancestors had barely strayed from my birthplace of Lancashire in the north of England!
Whether these revelations shifted our hearing of our own voices in the music we make is doubtful as our influences already crossed over in multifarious and unpredictable ways with little association with our genetics. It certainly informed our relationship with each other and our ancestors, though, perhaps raising as many questions as it answered.
Black Salt has this spare-but-bold palette, yet you brought in a real “melting pot” of guests (Hawi Gondwe, Andy Hamill, Mykey Wilson, even David Arnold). When you were choosing collaborators, what were you listening for—technical range, emotional instinct, shared language, or productive friction?
Rohan: Thanks! We like spare-but-bold. Most of the musicians who joined us on Black Salt were instinctive and often spontaneous choices. The musicians involved sprang to mind or crossed our path when we needed them. Perhaps the one thing that unites them all is a kind of ‘shared language’. It’s so hard to express in words what you’re looking for in music. You can convey the basics but often the nuances are lost if someone has a different aesthetic. Each of the musicians we worked with was chosen on this basis. For example, we’d talked about having electric guitar on some of the tracks but wanted to avoid clichéd rock guitar solos at all costs. We saw Hawi Gondwe play and loved his unique angular and minimal style so he was the obvious choice when it came to laying down guitar on Warpaint and Little Axe.
Regarding the production, how did you stop the collaborations from becoming “features” and instead make them feel like essential architecture of the record?
Lou: We’re firm believers in a less-is-more aesthetic but also that a track will kind of ask for what it needs. We initially bumped into David Arnold in our local health food store, and a conversation ensued from there. Obviously, he’s a legendary producer in his own right, so when he offered to lay down some guitar for Walking Backwards at his place on a kind of ‘use it if you like it’ basis, we were totally honoured. Initially we’d felt the track worked as just vocals, double bass, drums and subtle keyboard colourations, but there was something magically unique about the style of David’s playing and the hooky loops we used took the track to a whole new level.
Looking ahead to the upcoming European tour: Black Salt sounds intimate, spare, and emotionally precise. Are you afraid of losing this when you translate that kind of closeness to bigger venues in various cities?
Lou: We’ve been totally loving playing the songs of Black Salt live, starting from a lovely launch show at London’s Kings Place with an awesome Steinway D Grand Piano for Rohan to play. Yes, there’s an intimacy and sparseness to the tracks but playing them live, we find we can really lose ourselves in them, and their essence comes across in a powerful way. We can’t wait for more live shows and to introduce the album, along with some older songs, to new audiences.
Where can our readers find out more about you? ( website/ social media)
Our instagram is probably the best way to keep up with regular updates. We’re @we_are_kiioto there.
Our website has all upcoming shows listed along with further info, bio, and show archive. Website address: https://www.kiioto.com
Upcoming live shows announced to date:
19.07: Moon In June Festival, Perugia (IT) TICKETS
16.08: Ohrid Jazz Week, Ohrid (MK) TICKETS
12.09: Hviezda Cultural and Creative Centre, Trencin (SK) TICKETS
14.10: O2 Academy 2, Liverpool (UK) TICKETS
15.10: The Globe, Cardiff (UK) TICKETS
16.10: AATMA, Manchester (UK) TICKETS
21.10: Pizza Express Jazz club, Soho, London (UK) TICKETS
22.10: Quarterhouse, Folkestone (UK) TICKETS
23.10: Wiltshire Music Centre, Bradford-On-Avon (UK) TICKETS
24.10: Cornish Bank, Falmouth (UK) TICKETS
28.10: Paard, The Hague (NL) TICKETS
29.10: Muziekgieterij, Maastricht (NL) TICKETS
31.10: Trafo, Jena (DE) TICKETS
03.11: Bogen F, Zurich (CH) TICKETS
05.11: Willem Twee, Hertogenbosch (NL) TICKETS
07.11: HUIS19, Ghent (BE) SOLD OUT
08.11: HUIS19, Ghent (BE) TICKETS
Photo Credit Steph Dray /Album launch photographs at Kings Place, London, by Tom Leentjes
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